How bad is the current job market for entry-level actuaries?

[nostalgiajesskang]

It seems that many are worrying about this. But what to do when you're already half way through the degree and membership of the society? What you can do is to polish yourself to stand out.

Bio field is definitely promising in the coming few years to one decade or even more, does that mean we all have to switch field? IT novelty wears off too, but many are still studying it. So preference and interest speak something too.

Perhaps the advice for those who haven't made any decision, yes, the actuarial world is beat brutally, if you have interest in bio field, please head there.

[JS1]

Originally Posted by NoMoreExams

The fine print that you need to become accredited to not be as expandable as you were. That means at least an Associate of either Society.

(I think mean expendable; I am expandable if I eat twice as much LOL)

How am I supposed to be a non-expendable ASA if I have to study between 9 PM and 3 AM in the two weeks prior to the exam? I have worked during those hours, both in this field and as a convenience store clerk, but I am simply not capable of studying during those hours, and very few people are.

Everyone is expandable. Everyone. Do I believe that my job is 100% secure? Of course not. But that's true in EVERY profession. Every job has its pluses and minuses, I mean come on. The whole point of getting experience is to make yourself as valuable as possible to your employer. You don't have to run fast, just faster than the guy next to you. Actuarial work, to a certain degree, offers an extra way of doing so - PASSING EXAMS which you failed to do once again for whatever reason. Yeah corporate America is competitive, did you not read that fine print as well? I'm fairly confident that was written in big, bold letters.[

I do have experience; 12 years worth! I passed more exams than anyone else in my department except for my FSA bosses; I solved problems that no one else (including the boss) could solve.

I was told that working hard and gaining experience would make you more valuable (more pay) and less likely to be laid off. Yet reality is that I was laid off because I made more than the average slave in our department and now I'm faced with jobs that pay the same as what I made 11 years ago. What a waste of time!

You are right entry level work isn't challenging, any high school kid can run be taught to run a few queries, dump the data into something like Access, run a few more queries and paste results into a spreadsheet. The work GETS challenging when you get promoted to, for example, being a plan actuary. Which you get, at least where I work, by showing that you are smart and becoming at least an ASA. On average I do work 40 hours. Yes I worked on the bids and yes I have worked a 60 hour week. Big deal. I enjoyed my job, I enjoyed seeing an end result and am interested to see if my projections were accurate.

That point I must disagree with. While entry level actuarial work doesn't require high level math, it is far more difficult than what any old high schooler can do.

I have been temping in an Algebra I class, explaining to 9th and 10th graders how to calculate the slope of a line. Talk about bottom-of-the-barrel skills, these kids need to be encouraged to not drop out and study hard for the standardized test (an extremely easy test for someone who is good at math; I got 100% right when I took it).

Anyway, I did enjoy my job until two years ago. My job and the actuarial field and the broader economy has taken a huge nose dive since then, especially in the last 12 months. A return to the good old days are a long way into the future, possibly never.

Really? That's not true for other professions? Once again in that real world of yours you should see that even though the grass may be greener on the other side, it's not always so.

What other professions promise easy work and high pay from day one? Everyone knows that working in public accounting ''''s, being a nurse means paying your dues cleaning nasty butts, being a pilot means paying your dues working odd hours at near minimum wage, etc.

Even today we see people on this web site who expect an entry level job to be handed to them after having passed the easiest actuarial exam (P) at the rate of 65 big ones. Granted, the same type of unrealistic expectations exist in the minds of many college students, but only in the actuarial world is it so common.

[NoMoreExams]

Originally Posted by JS1

(I think mean expendable; I am expandable if I eat twice as much LOL)

How am I supposed to be a non-expendable ASA if I have to study between 9 PM and 3 AM in the two weeks prior to the exam? I have worked during those hours, both in this field and as a convenience store clerk, but I am simply not capable of studying during those hours, and very few people are.

You will have to forgive my spelling errors at close to 2 AM but yes amazingly enough you understood what I meant I already addressed that that was your fault as much as your employer's. You stayed at that job because they kept throwing money at you. You should've left. Hindsight is once again 20/20. There are plenty of actuarial jobs where the employer is very supportive of the actuarial students' need to pass exams.

Originally Posted by JS1

I do have experience; 12 years worth! I passed more exams than anyone else in my department except for my FSA bosses, I solved problems that no one else (including the boss) could solve.

I was told that working hard and gaining experience would make you more valuable (more pay) and less likely to be laid off. Yet reality is that I was laid off because I made more than the average slave in our department and now I'm faced with jobs that pay the same as what I made 11 years ago. What a waste of time!

So your boss(es) lied to you. ''''s. Agreed. I said it earlier, a few times probably, that you become LESS likely to be replaced (c wat i did thar?) if you are accredited.

Originally Posted by JS1

That point I must disagree with. The actuarial field doesn't require high level math, but it is far more difficult than what the average high schooler can do.

I have been temping in an Algebra I class, explaining to 10th graders how to calculate the slope of a line.

Perhaps not by an average high schooler. Any high schooler that will go on to become a successful actuary can, IMO, do entry level work during high school.

Originally Posted by JS1

Anyway, I enjoyed my job as well up until two years ago. My job and the actuarial field and the broader economy has taken a huge nose dive since then, especially in the last 12 months. A return to the good old days are a long way into the future, possibly never.

You seem to be suffering from both the economy and internal c.rap. No one could've predicted the recession (or maybe they could've but there's a giant conspiracy by SOA!) and the internal c.rap... well that ''''s but I doubt anyone predicted that as well and is at least partially died to the former reason.

Originally Posted by JS1

What other professions promise easy work and high pay from day one? Everyone knows that working in public accounting ''''s, being a nurse means paying your dues cleaning nasty butts, being a pilot means paying your dues working odd hours at near minimum wage, etc.

Even today we see people on this web site who expect an entry level job to be handed to them after having passed the easiest actuarial exam (P) at the rate of 65 big ones. Granted, the same type of unrealistic expectations exist in the minds of many college students, but only in the actuarial world is it so common.

Yeah people's expectations are wrong. I try to correct them. They can listen or not. I agree with you on a few points i.e. actuarial work isn't a rosy future but to me it's still better than other jobs I considered and as such, I'm at the worst - content with it.

[nostalgiajesskang]

Originally Posted by NoMoreExams

Yeah people's expectations are wrong. I try to correct them. They can listen or not. I agree with you on a few points i.e. actuarial work isn't a rosy future but to me it's still better than other jobs I considered and as such, I'm at the worst - content with it.

I agree.

[JS1]

I'm not saying that you should quit your job -- far from it.

What I'm trying to say is that there are tons of people trying to get into actuarial, and I don't want people to make the same mistake I did, that it's easy and recession-proof, because it's not.

Regarding your statement that there are employers who support takig exams -- would you mind telling me who they are? I have yet to run into one. I don't mean a company that has an actuarial student program, but a company that hires people and enrolls them in the actuarial student program. It does me no good whatsover to work for someone where other employees are in the actuarial student program and I'm not.

[Romey]

This is an interesting discussion. I remember in 1995 at the U of IL, for every person that graduated with a degree in actuary, there were 10 jobs waiting for them. And the range of pay was from $37K - $108K with a mean of $60K. Actuary jobs were in the top 10 jobs to have. Where do you think we are with that now? I love solving problems. Flying has really had ups and downs and when I hear someone tell me they want to start a career in flying I give them the good and the bad but the promising thing for flying is it is cyclical. So they might start now when the economy is bad but by the time they get all their hours and ratings they will be ready. I believed actuary is a career that if I get to a point where I can pass at least the first test I will be marketable. Am I wrong?

[NoMoreExams]

Originally Posted by Romey

This is an interesting discussion. I remember in 1995 at the U of IL, for every person that graduated with a degree in actuary, there were 10 jobs waiting for them. And the range of pay was from $37K - $108K with a mean of $60K. Actuary jobs were in the top 10 jobs to have. Where do you think we are with that now? I love solving problems. Flying has really had ups and downs and when I hear someone tell me they want to start a career in flying I give them the good and the bad but the promising thing for flying is it is cyclical. So they might start now when the economy is bad but by the time they get all their hours and ratings they will be ready. I believed actuary is a career that if I get to a point where I can pass at least the first test I will be marketable. Am I wrong?

I'm not sure anyone coming out with a degree in AS from U of I was making 108K, especially not in 1995. How are you coming up with these numbers.

[Romey]

Originally Posted by NoMoreExams

I'm not sure anyone coming out with a degree in AS from U of I was making 108K, especially not in 1995. How are you coming up with these numbers.

Sorry I am mixing up info. In 1995 I was told for every person that graduated the U of IL with a degree in actuary there were 10 jobs waiting for them. As opposed to my econ degree were for every econ job there were 10 people looking for that job. Now for 2006 I researched the salary of actuaries due to my wife graduating from DePaul with an Actuary degree. There is where I found the $37K-$108K range and the mean of $60K. I thought that significant because I remember telling my wife that in '95 the mean was somewhere around that. I dont mean to focus on the salary. I saw the idea that it was in the top ten jobs to have, it is challenging, there are more jobs than qualified people, and the pay is outstanding for just starting out. So this would be a great lateral move from being a pilot.

From http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos041.htm
Median annual earnings of actuaries were $82,800 in May 2006. The middle 50 percent earned between $58,710 and $114,570. The lowest 10 percent had earnings of less than $46,470 while the top 10 percent earned more than $145,600.

According to the National Association of Colleges and Employers, annual starting salaries for graduates with a bachelor’s degree in actuarial science averaged $53,754 in 2007

[mrcrosscountry]

[quote=JS1;50136]
Regarding your statement that there are employers who support takig exams -- would you mind telling me who they are? QUOTE]

You're kidding, right?

Any legitimate firm that employs actuaries will give study time, text books, exam fees, bonuses and pay raises for progress through the examination progress.

If I may be blunt, working for 12 years and not yet attaining ASA certification looks embarassing. It gives off an appearance of laziness or ineptitude in a field full of driven people.

If your last job was as terrible as you say in terms of not having any exam incentives or support, then you should have quite long before they had the opportunity to let you go.

[recession]

well, when young people like myself are entering into the field in their early 20's what we are looking for is definitely trying to pass 2-4 subjects and the VEE credits before leaving college( I have 3 years left in the university, so hopefully clearing VEE won't be a problem) and then hoping to get a job with standard salaries and work hours so that we can continue to study for the xams and earn an ASA in a few years...so any newbie posting here is definitely hoping to know what their prospects are when they pass with these kind of qualification ..
In that sense I think JS1 's comments are disappointing but never unwelcomed..its good to know the other side of the story about a well advertised profession..would like to have comments from other actuaries as well..Thank u NOmoreExams for those encouragements anyway..

And JS1 is it true that actuary works are being shipped to india? I am amazed at it..because then hundreds of indian students wouldn't have been fighting so hard both financially and academically to clear SOA exams...And another thing how do you think actuary works can be 'shipped' to a country where insurance sector is still under government control and there are huge regulations at every point in the financial market..