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Harkiran
June 15th 2009, 09:05 PM
Hi all,
I am on H1 visa so is it possible to get a position of actuary .

nostalgiajesskang
June 16th 2009, 05:03 AM
May I know how do you get it? Further studies, Green card lottery, sponsorship from company?

JS1
July 20th 2009, 11:52 AM
Hi all,
I am on H1 visa so is it possible to get a position of actuary .

I hope not. We have enough unemployed and qualified citizens in the U.S. as it is. Please go back to India and work in a call center for 15 cents an hour.

NoMoreExams
July 20th 2009, 12:59 PM
I hope not. We have enough unemployed and qualified citizens in the U.S. as it is. Please go back to India and work in a call center for 15 cents an hour.

THIS is def. trolling. People that are threatened by competition, foreign or domestic, should figure out why they are being fired in lieu of others.

JS1
July 20th 2009, 11:16 PM
THIS is def. trolling. People that are threatened by competition, foreign or domestic, should figure out why they are being fired in lieu of others.

Quit calling me a troll! Wake up, this is real life... India's wages are drastically lowering than the U.S. The U.S. cannot compete with India for work because of the vast disparity in wages. Are you satisfied with just giving up and letting India take over?

NoMoreExams
July 21st 2009, 12:25 AM
Quit calling me a troll! Wake up, this is real life... India's wages are drastically lowering than the U.S. The U.S. cannot compete with India for work because of the vast disparity in wages. Are you satisfied with just giving up and letting India take over?

Wake up, this country was built on immigrants. I'm not afraid of India or any other country's citizens competing for the same jobs that I am. Then again I have faith in my skill set.

JS1
July 21st 2009, 12:59 AM
Wake up, this country was built on immigrants. I'm not afraid of India or any other country's citizens competing for the same jobs that I am. Then again I have faith in my skill set.

These people are not immigrants! There are lots of different visas, but they can be divided into two main groups -- immigrant visa and non-immigrant visa. An H1B is a non-immigrant visa.

Here's an example of how the two are treated differently even though it has nothing to do with the actuarial profession or employment in general: in the state of South Carolina (probably most states as well), if you want to get a concealed weaopns permit, you have to be either a U.S. citizen or the holder of an immigrant visa (a green card). Even if the legislature wanted to give non-immigrant visa holders a concealed weapons permit, it would be pointless because a non-immigrant visa holder *cannot posess* a firearm pursuant to federal law.

This country was NOT built on non-immigrants. People in England didn't work for companies based in the U.S. because no such arrangement existed. If you wanted to work in the U.S., you had to come over here, apply for citizenship, and park your butt in this country permanently. Lots of people did that (see photographs of the crowds at Ellis Island in the 1800's).

Today, when presented with the choice of immigrating here and gaining U.S. citizenship or coming here on a non-immigrant visa, besides the immigration limits (not at all a recent change in federal law, by the way), it's just easier to be a "temp" so that you don't have to worry about forever leaving your family behind in India or whatever country you came from.

The wages these people earn go straight back to their home country, depriving the U.S. of the economic benefits that are normally obtained by people working here.

I hope everyone has enjoyed my lecture on economics and history. :)

P.S. I have faith in my skill set as well, but the problem is that Indian labor is so cheap, it's cheaper to hire two Indians to do your job that you used to do all by yourself. I was told this directly by an FSA who is a VP (or senior VP, I don't recall). He doesn't make this stuff up.

sohpmalvin
July 21st 2009, 01:00 AM
Wake up, this country was built on immigrants. I'm not afraid of India or any other country's citizens competing for the same jobs that I am. Then again I have faith in my skill set.

This attitude is fantastic. Salute!

NoMoreExams
July 21st 2009, 01:08 AM
P.S. I have faith in my skill set as well, but the problem is that Indian labor is so cheap, it's cheaper to hire two Indians to do your job that you used to do all by yourself. I was told this directly by an FSA who is a VP (or senior VP, I don't recall). He doesn't make this stuff up.

Thanks for the lesson on economics and history, at this time I don't have the energy to debate it but I do have an issue with the last statement (quoted for emphasis). If you can be that easily replaced then you have no one to blame but yourself. Is your VP or SVP friend afraid of getting replaced by the same cohort of people that you are scared of? Ever wonder why not?

nostalgiajesskang
July 21st 2009, 01:08 AM
THIS is def. trolling. People that are threatened by competition, foreign or domestic, should figure out why they are being fired in lieu of others.

NoMoreExams, you are really a man!

NoMoreExams
July 21st 2009, 01:09 AM
NoMoreExams, you are really a man!

My gf agrees :)

JS1
July 21st 2009, 01:26 AM
Thanks for the lesson on economics and history, at this time I don't have the energy to debate it but I do have an issue with the last statement (quoted for emphasis). If you can be that easily replaced then you have no one to blame but yourself. Is your VP or SVP friend afraid of getting replaced by the same cohort of people that you are scared of? Ever wonder why not?

Really, so it's MY fault that the U.S. government has no problem with skilled professional labor being shipped overseas so that the government can pay me unemployment compensation, subsidize my COBRA premiums and collect nothing in payroll and incomes taxes. Why I ever ignored my constituents and voted for those bills I just don't know. Stupid me! I should balance the needs of the citizens and the corporate lobbyists better in the future or I might not be re-elected to Congress next year.

BTW there is no one who is safe from layoffs. If you are a manager and most of your employees are now in India instead of on your floor, your days are numbered.

NoMoreExams
July 21st 2009, 01:30 AM
Really, so it's MY fault that the U.S. government has no problem with skilled professional labor being shipped overseas so that the government can pay me unemployment compensation, subsidize my COBRA premiums and collect nothing in payroll and incomes taxes. Why I ever ignored my constituents and voted for those bills I just don't know. Stupid me! I should balance the needs of the citizens and the corporate lobbyists better in the future or I might not be re-elected to Congress next year.

BTW there is no one who is safe from layoffs. If you are a manager and most of your employees are now in India instead of on your floor, your days are numbered.

I addressed this in another thread. Answer me this, do you think competition is good or bad?

JS1
July 21st 2009, 02:04 AM
Fair competition is, without a doubt, the best economic system. Failures like North Korea and the USSR do not have an economic system like ours that takes fair competition and turns out the best living standard the world has ever known.

Unfair competition, on the other hand, is no better than Standard Oil or the old Ma Bell. Letting India break our kneecaps on wages is one step short of treason in my book.

For example, let's pretend that McDonald's on 8th street charges $1.50 for a Big Mac. McDonald's on 12th street charges 35 cents for a Big Mac. Very few people will refuse to walk or drive an extra four blocks to save such a large amount of money.

The McDonald's on 12th street can survive on the 35 cents Big Mac because their employees are paid $2.20 an hour, whereas the McDonald's on 8th street has people in the restaurant who make $7.25 an hour. The McDonald's on 12th street got a waiver from the Department of Labor to import workers from overseas who are happy to work there for $2.20 an hour.

If the McDonald's on 12th street isn't burned to the ground by the time the wage disparity is eliminated once news of its existence is made, I would be surprised.

The actuarial world can get away with this, for now, because it's not in-your-face like my McDonald's example.

NoMoreExams
July 21st 2009, 02:09 AM
Fair competition is, without a doubt, the best economic system. Failures like North Korea and the USSR do not have an economic system like ours that takes fair competition and turns out the best living standad the world has ever known.

Unfair competition, on the other hand, is no better than Standard Oil or the old Ma Bell. Letting India break our kneecaps on wages is one step short of treason in my book.

For example, let's pretend that McDonald's on 8th street charges $1.50 for a Big Mac. McDonald's on 12th street charges 35 cents for a Big Mac. Very few people will refuse to walk or drive an extra four blocks to save such a large amount of money.

The McDonald's on 12th street can survive on the 35 cents Big Mac because their employees are paid $2.20 an hour, whereas the McDonald's on 8th street has people in the restaurant who make $7.25 an hour. The McDonald's on 12th street got a waiver from the Department of Labor to import workers from overseas who are happy to work there for $2.20 an hour.

If the McDonald's on 12th street isn't burned to the ground by the time the wage disparity is eliminated once news of its existence is made, I would be surprised.

The actuarial world can get away with this, for now, because it's not in-your-face like my McDonald's example.

This may be true for a getting a good ol' cheeseburger but let's say we take it a step further and look at ... universities. If foreigners come here and can do better work, should we deny them? Should we halt progress in R&D just because you are afraid they are smarter than you (and willing to work for less)? By your logic WalMart is bad as well since it puts the Ma and Pa shops out of business. I said before and I'm afraid this might be my last post for the day, competition is good. I enjoy being challenged. If there's a better person for my job, I'm either not trying hard enough or I should go look elsewhere. I don't work at a super competitive job so maybe I'm not experiencing your competition, I don't know where you were employed. I guess my point is competition breeds innovation in my book and I welcome it.

JS1
July 21st 2009, 02:31 AM
If foreigners immigrate here and can do better work than I, even at lower wages, I will welcome them with open arms and say "welcome to America, my fellow American".

The United States is basically 100% immigrant (excepting the Native Americans, but even then, they could be immigrants if our species originated in Africa, but I digress).

Immigration means you move to another country and put down roots. It DOES NOT mean that you come here and work temporarily and wire the money overseas to your family. Those are as different as night and day.

I don't have a problem with Wal-Mart, in that some stores that they have put out of business didn't deserve to stay in business because they weren't competitive. They thought they could skate by on momentum and they were proven wrong. The only thing I don't like about Wal-Mart is that their products are cheap, and I am willing to pay more for quality. That doesn't mean I spend more money overall. I have clothes that are three years old, and I refuse to buy any clothes from Wal-Mart because it's low quality and doesn't last three years like American Eagle or Hollister.

NoMoreExams
July 21st 2009, 09:14 AM
I can see your point JS1 though you do have a rather ... non-PC way about it. However I believe that a good portion of the people who come here on a visa plan to find a way to stay here and become a citizen. Would you disagree?

mrcrosscountry
July 21st 2009, 09:36 AM
" The only thing I don't like about Wal-Mart is that their products are cheap, and I am willing to pay more for quality"

Meaning you are willing to pay someone according to the quality of work they provide. I can't see many companies hiring employees that they don't feel possess the quality skills needed for the job.

This means that you were working for a company that didn't appreciate the quality of your work, or found you to be very replaceable.

Perhaps instead of trolling these message boards with propoganda about how terrible everything is in America, you can get another job... maybe something in politics? :rolleye:

Shouldn't you be outside, patrolling the US/Mexican border making sure no camouflage covered actuaries are trying to sneak in?

Talking about the problem isn't helping! Make a difference! Take Action! Go round up those scheming actuaries, computer programmers, engineers, and CEO's who are taking our jobs (and have the NERVE to send their wages to their families) and ship em back where they came from! It is unpatriotic for a red blooded american to be replaced by an inferior replacement (Bill Clinton ----> George W.) But the point is... not everyone would agree that the replacement is, in fact, inferior... would they?

<end of sarcasm>

Y2A
July 21st 2009, 11:01 AM
Someone needs to ban this troll already.

JS1
July 21st 2009, 04:23 PM
Give it up, a troll is not someone who disagrees with your viewpoint. Banning me for having a non-majority opinion would turn what is presently a discussion forum into a cheerleader forum. It's supposed to have information for people who want to become actuaries, and censoring opinions will not do them any good.

If I had someone tell me that ceasing the exam series is a very bad idea, and quitting your job in order to work somewhere that does have a student program is strongly recommended, I would have done that! I think that new people deserve to have this kind of information.

mrcrosscountry
July 21st 2009, 05:29 PM
Nah, buddy...

A troll is someone who repeats themselves in a confrontational manner while trying to get a rise out of other people. The stuff you have been saying isn't constructive, or well-written advice; it is a pessimistic, and fairly racist opinion where you are taking your unfortunate (and seemingly deserving) situation and saying it applied to the entire actuarial field. That is a sweeping, and inaccurate generalization.

nostalgiajesskang
July 21st 2009, 11:07 PM
Give it up, a troll is not someone who disagrees with your viewpoint. Banning me for having a non-majority opinion would turn what is presently a discussion forum into a cheerleader forum. It's supposed to have information for people who want to become actuaries, and censoring opinions will not do them any good.

If I had someone tell me that ceasing the exam series is a very bad idea, and quitting your job in order to work somewhere that does have a student program is strongly recommended, I would have done that! I think that new people deserve to have this kind of information.

Calm down and march on are all you need! :coolman:

Khadada
October 16th 2009, 10:28 AM
Skipping past the melee, Yes, you can get a job in the US on an H1B visa. I personally am on one.

Having graduated from a US university (undergrad), getting excellent grades and passing an actuarial exam while at college, I was just as qualified as anyone else for the position. If you take my extra-curricular activities, and the fact that I attained Two other insurance-field designations Before graduation put me well above other candidates, in my opinion (and in recruiters' opinions lol).

For the record, I do not earn less than my peers. In fact looking at the averages on DW Simpson, I earn more that the starting average.

Looking at a field as technical as actuarial science, I would think employers simply hire the best workers with the skill. The day when you find an ASA flipping burgers in Burger King is the day when you should start worrying about foreigners "stealing" your actuarial jobs. In the meantime, employers will hire the talent regardless of their citizenship. Seeking an actuarial position as a non-US citizen is not as easy as you seem to think. Many insurance companies do not sponsor H-1B visas. International students who want a job in the field must not be equal to their peers, but must actually be Better to set themselves apart, and be worth the headache of hiring.

Offering H-1B's to Indians in IT is an entirely different story, and should not be brought into an actuarial conversation.

JS1
October 16th 2009, 10:13 PM
So an ASA has to be a burger-flipper in order to sound the economic alarm?

Is it not good enough that an ASA is doing non-ASA work? '''...

I'm not an ASA (but I have 5 exams), and while I'm not flipping burgers, I am doing a job that does not require actuarial exams.

Clearly I wasted a lot of money and a lot of time taking actuarial exams because people like you flood the job market, destroying the prospects I once had for a fulfilling career.

One reason I have a job is because I get to mail letters to retirees with their pension benefit statements, which is too expensive to mail from India. The day that mail from India is cheaper is the day that I get laid off.

I am doing everything in my power to NOT give the people in India the chance to do more of my job, because that increases the probability that I will get laid off.

I have the choice of calculating a pension benefit that isn't boilerplate myself or sending it back to India with instructions on how to calcuate such benefits. What is the probability that I will give the Indian people the knowledge it takes to destroy my job? Hint: it's neither positive nor negative.

NoMoreExams
October 17th 2009, 12:54 AM
You know what you could've done that a person from India or wherever has? Passed more exams.

13lackhat
October 27th 2009, 11:19 AM
Hey! Good to see all this. Out of curiosity which will eventually help in some decision taking: Are actuaries from abroad allowed to practice in the US. If yes, how often is that? And if no, then is there a procedure for an already qualified actuary to join SOA in the US?

Hope this is not thread hacking. It's under the same topic.

WILLEL2338
December 9th 2009, 08:01 PM
If I had someone tell me that ceasing the exam series is a very bad idea, and quitting your job in order to work somewhere that does have a student program is strongly recommended, I would have done that! I think that new people deserve to have this kind of information.

To be fair, you probably should have known this. If I've read correctly, you went to UT-Austin, a school with one of the better actuarial programs in the country (world?). I'm skeptical that your professors at UT didn't tell you to find a good student program...

Further, the exams are the cornerstone of an actuarial education. Common sense should have told you not to stop writing exams. You shortchanged yourself. The world isn't out to get you.


You know what you could've done that a person from India or wherever has? Passed more exams.

Precisely.



Slightly off topic, but it's my honest opinion, formulated through speaking with a number of different actuaries, that there are too many students in the pipeline who don't finish the exams or who take several years and several attempts to pass each exam. Essentially, there is a glut of mid-level actuaries and a scarcity of qualified FCAS/FSA. Thus, the societies have been seeking to reduce "travel time" for years now.

I don't know from personal experience, but from what I've read and heard, most actuarial students are not all that helpful in terms of real, actuarial workflows and processes until after they have their letters. The only reason junior actuaries are involved in everyday workflows as much as they are is so that they can gain experience to be used later on. By most accounts, actuarial employers loathe students like JS1... who only get halfway through in 13 years time. They want students committed to finishing the exam process!

WILLEL2338
December 9th 2009, 08:23 PM
Looking at a field as technical as actuarial science, I would think employers simply hire the best workers with the skill. The day when you find an ASA flipping burgers in Burger King is the day when you should start worrying about foreigners "stealing" your actuarial jobs. In the meantime, employers will hire the talent regardless of their citizenship. Seeking an actuarial position as a non-US citizen is not as easy as you seem to think. Many insurance companies do not sponsor H-1B visas. International students who want a job in the field must not be equal to their peers, but must actually be Better to set themselves apart, and be worth the headache of hiring.

Yes! You must operate under the correct assumption that good companies are always looking for superstar talent. They don't want candidates from India at any cost if those candidates cannot solve problems.

WILLEL2338
December 9th 2009, 09:16 PM
...

I'm not an ASA (but I have 5 exams), and while I'm not flipping burgers, I am doing a job that does not require actuarial exams.

Clearly I wasted a lot of money and a lot of time taking actuarial exams because people like you flood the job market, destroying the prospects I once had for a fulfilling career.

...




Interesting. I feel I should direct you back to this thread (salaries in San Fran) (http://www.actuary.com/actuarial-discussion-forum/showthread.php?t=13617) that you, yourself, started a few months ago.

From your comments in the aforementioned thread, it would appear that in practice all you care about is today's standard of living, yet all you can talk about is how the profession has been ruined for future actuaries. On one hand, you lament that you stopped taking exams (your choice, by the way) and that you work for a company that doesn't require exams (also, your choice). On the other hand, you show little initiative to take further exams and don't seem too interested in pursuing other companies (those that might support the exam process). Based on your comments in the other thread, I assume you didn't follow up with the company only because the job wouldn't have increased today's standard of living. You might be better served finding a student position at a lower salary, decreasing today's standard of living, yet giving you opportunity to pass exams.

Ultimately, figuring our your career path should probably come after you finish the exams and you should finish the exams as fast as possible. That's advice for anyone, not you, specifically. I found that advice repeated numerous times when discussing the prospects of this career with recruiters, actuaries and in print on this Web site and others.


Can you not see that your viewpoint is a bit cynical?! Even if one were to concede your cock-eyed arguments that actuaries in this country will be fully replaced by Indians; surely, you can still recognize the benefit of passing upper level exams right now, today. All of the "people like him" that flood the market today aren't likely to be FCAS/FSA anytime soon (possibly ever), yet you, having already passed 5 exams, have the opportunity to do this within only a few years!





One reason I have a job is because I get to mail letters to retirees with their pension benefit statements, which is too expensive to mail from India. The day that mail from India is cheaper is the day that I get laid off.

You're saying American companies couldn't setup printing presses and mailing facilities in this country, where the material printed is actually analyzed/processed in another country? Really?

If the company desired, then right now, today, they could have the Indian actuary process these letters and have him send the batch file to the US for local printing/mailing. The cost of a stamp from India is irrelevant. Data is stored digitally.

roelvdh
January 23rd 2010, 01:47 PM
Reading the posts is rather depressing I must say. I wasn't aware that it is actually difficult to find actuarial jobs in the US and that outsourcing is a threat, waw ... Europe is rather the other way around. Over here you become an actuary because of the high demand and the low supply (its again the number one profession), the good work - personal life balance, the decent salaries (not like investment banking but still rather ok), ... for this reason there are a lot of female actuaries with families. Outsourcing is not really an issue here and certainly not to India. I have heard that certain UK companies sometimes do it but this are usually tasks, which you could also automate with a good ICT system and you don't want to do these things.

I also don't believe Indian actuaries are so cheap and I also expect the supply to be rather limited. Very likely their managers will cost more than a manager in Europe or the US, so I have got my doubts that it would be efficient and effective to do this. I have got some experience with Central Europe, where the salaries on average are one fourth of ours, this is definitely not true for actuaries and the managers have amazing salaries, leading to quite high costs for actuarial teams ... I am convinced I could do it cheaper ... The only problem is finding actuaries, which is rather challenging on the continent (currently I am four actuaries short on my 6 person budget :Ouch:).

I think the best advice I could give is concentrate on tasks higher in the value chain like risk management, capital modelling, value based management, reinsurance management, ... and be flexible in what you are doing.

Sensible
June 16th 2010, 11:34 AM
Quit calling me a troll! Wake up, this is real life... India's wages are drastically lowering than the U.S. The U.S. cannot compete with India for work because of the vast disparity in wages. Are you satisfied with just giving up and letting India take over?

JS1, My friend, are you afraid of the globalisation and the competition that you face from eastern countries?

If yes, then the remedy is not to turn h1b's or indians out of this country..but to work hard..

Currently the trend going on in the globalisation is trying to make the wages in the whole world equal...so very SOON you will see those 15 cents a hour coming close to your own salary per hour..or the other way around..

Well for your information, let me tell me you the maximum growth nowadays in insurance sector is observed in most of the eastern countries..and that is not because they have lower wages but because they have more calibre.

So my humble advice to you is, dont send any Indians back to India but if you can, treat them as your competition. Probably that will avoid the scene of YOU going to India and working there for 15 cents per hour.

WAKE UP AND OPEN TOO

hzhu503
October 24th 2010, 09:25 PM
Quit calling me a troll! Wake up, this is real life... India's wages are drastically lowering than the U.S. The U.S. cannot compete with India for work because of the vast disparity in wages. Are you satisfied with just giving up and letting India take over?

That's so true, my husband was working at IBM, and 2008 they started laying off people, when there were 11 people in my husband's team, he was still in until there were only 2 people, at the end, IBM outsourse the whole department to india, and my husband lost his job, he was so upset.